Breaking the Silicon Valley Mould

I took @NicoleSHsing to some hot pot and we spoke about a few things:
- The classic Silicon Valley mould  
- Tech bro hobbies
- Bridging art and technology

Restaurant staff hates to see a white boy armed with DJI mics and an iphone 17 pro coming.

Watch on X; listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

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Transcript

What is the Silicon Valley Mould?

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Okay. Like making sure that all everything's good. Hopefully I don't knock phone into boiling hot.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Boiling pot.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Okay, you're listening to a very special episode. This is actually a special episode of members of technical staff, because we need to eat.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

We are hungry.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Should we should we um wait, can you please pass us some chopsticks?

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 0:22

These are very long chopsticks.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Holy shit, my white ass is gonna struggle.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

Wait, there's also tongs.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah, yeah, we can tong me. So basically we we have an entire spread here. Um and we're not actually gonna be necessarily talking about the spread. We're gonna be talking about uh basically like escaping the Silicon Valley Mold. That was the idea that I had. Yeah. Um I'm also gonna be like learning how to do hotbots because it's been a little bit uh it's been a little while since my white ass has uh sat down and listened like this. But basically, um yeah. Nicole's a great one to have on to talk about the Silicon Valley Mold because she doesn't really fit that. Even though you grew up here.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

Not not at all. That's public knowledge. I grew up near Palo Alto.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, and yeah, so like you grew up here, you could have where did you go to school?

SPEAKER_05 1:15

I went to CMU.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yes, so you didn't go to you didn't go to Stanford. No.

SPEAKER_05 1:19

So I did not, did not do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

I'm thinking of like like what is the like what is the stereotypical mold? It's sort of like, you know, I I I think of the mold being like Stanford, Ivy League, and then you either graduate or you drop out. You either graduate and you go to fame, or you drop out and you raise a seed round.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

And then do the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Or you graduate and raise a seed round. Because it's like part of the mold right now is like, oh, well not the mold I should say, but basically the idea that you could if you're smart enough, or if you went to one of these Ivy Leagues, a viable career option is actually to just like raise a bunch of money and then pay yourself six figures.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

That is that is the way. That is the way it seems to be panning out.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I don't know that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but people always talk about like SF and Silicon Valley being a meritocracy, and then it's like you kind of look, you look deeper on the inside, it's like, oh, everyone's kind of the same.

SPEAKER_05 2:18

I really kind of doing the same the same kind of trajectory.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

And so, but I mean you're not.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

I I definitely am not. Um I definitely tried to take the normal path and then I just kind of made it my own.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

I love how you I'm asking you, I'm like, I'm asking you a question while you're actually cooking our our stuff.

SPEAKER_05 2:45

This is actually perfect for my ADHD. This is like fantastic. Good. I'm like, this is actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Who needs stimulants when you can just like um cook your own food?

SPEAKER_05 2:55

Cook your own food, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

While talking about niche San Francisco technology culture. And getting weird looks from people in the hotel.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

They're probably wondering what what are what are we filming?

SPEAKER_00 3:09

It's a great it's a great idea. It's a great idea, you know? It's it's really making me a more confident man. Pulling my pulling my camera out and putting on DJI mics and just talking to oneself.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Talking while in public spaces.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Yes, exactly. But yeah, I'm kind of cute, I'm kind of curious, right? Because obviously we have uh we have the shared thing in common of uh playing musical instruments.

SPEAKER_05 3:33

We do.

Playing musical instruments (Saxophone and Harp)

SPEAKER_00 3:35

And what is like you're a harpist, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:37

I am a harpist. I played the harp since I think fourth or fifth grade. Okay. So it's been a while, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

I think I you know what, I have I have you beat, I started clarinet in third grade.

SPEAKER_05 3:49

Really?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah. You know why? Because I wanted I always wanted to play saxophone.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

Obviously, like people might know that I Wait, why how did you end up wanting to play saxoph? Like how does a child want like how does it happen?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I don't know. It's a great question.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

Like did you see it in like a cartoon or like someone play it?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

I feel like my so so I went, I I was brought up in public school. Okay. Went through public school my entire life. But for whatever reason, my in Australia we do K through six. So we don't have we don't have like elementary, middle, and high school. We go K through six and we go seven through twelve. So it's like primary school and high school.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

So my primary school, just for whatever reason, primary public school had a really, really great music program. We would just like have all of these musical acts in, and I don't know. I remember a bunch of them just coming in and just like shredding the saxophone. I was like, cool, that's what I want to do. I try I tried everything.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

That's actually crazy because you still play now pretty consistently. Yeah, like you followed that dream.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

I still want to be I still want to be the best saxophone player of all time. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

There's still plenty of time. Wait, who's the best in the world?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

The best in the world right now. Um it's a good question. If we're like everybody has their own personal preference, right?

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

But I would say that I think one of the most technically established and one of my favourites to listen to is a guy called Chris Potter.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. I would say my old teacher, he'd like, in terms of like technique, play with Taylor Swift. Um I would say he's like, he's way up there as well. Um, but you know, it's like when you when you get that good, it does become a little bit subjective. But that's what we're here to do. We're here to make takes based on vibes.

SPEAKER_05 5:34

We are, we are. We are just vibing.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

BSO Hop. Because you still play, you still play as well, right?

SPEAKER_05 5:40

I do. I haven't played as much as I want to, but I'm trying to get back into it.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Oh, we're picking meat now as well.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

We are now eating meat.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 5:48

This looks so good.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Don't mind if we do.

SPEAKER_05 5:52

Go for it, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll wait until I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 5:56

Okay, there we go. See, the broccoli might need more time.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05 6:01

I don't know shit about that. The meat is good.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

The meat takes like only like a couple seconds.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

We got these like zero calorie noodle things as well. Kinda glad that you got them. Although zero calories, not music to my ears. Not music to my ears. Um zero calories bad.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

We're being skinny queens. Skinny queens.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I I mean, I would say don't mind if I do, but like, no, I want to be big.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

I want to be big. Show the hog. How often do you play now?

SPEAKER_05 6:38

I'd say like once a week, I try to.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

Which is a pretty good thing. Honestly, yeah, that's not bad. But I did take a break for all of college. And then I went back to it after I moved back to SF after college. And I I was like, I think I still got it. I was absolutely terrible.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

I was like, Yeah, when you take that amount of time off, you I feel like it comes back quicker than we think.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Okay, it does come back very quick.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

It's still very um still very humbling when we take that amount of time off. I mean, I I feel the same way with my instrument when I take, you know, accidentally take say two weeks off. Um I mean it's not bad, I can still play, but like everything feels a bit clunky and rusty or whatever. Um yeah, that's fascinating. Because like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, you you kind of you kind of

Rock climbing, pickleball and making electronic music

SPEAKER_00 7:30

meet plenty of these people, these kinds of people in Silicon Valley who, you know, they have hobbies, right? And you know, the hobby might be pickleball, or the hobby is gonna be rock climbing.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

Yeah, I was gonna say rock climbing.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Making electronic music. And it's like it always it always seems to be those three.

SPEAKER_05 7:47

I wanna know how that happened. Like, how did we converge on those three things?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Pickleball, rock climbing, and making electronic music. They all feel like the lowest risk. I mean rock climbing, I feel like you can, you know, rock climbing, there's some jeopardy when you take it outside, and I don't know, like obviously it's a it's a whole thing, but I don't know. Pickleball is kind of like the pickleball is the tennis for retired people. Right?

SPEAKER_05 8:11

Yeah, I think that that tracks with what my understanding is.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

But yeah, it's like like you don't I feel like you don't see that many people in the valley uh sort of like pairing their startup or pairing their work life with, you know, like a an art form or you know like a musical instrument at

Actually, you can do everything

SPEAKER_00 8:34

a very very high level. I mean I guess like, you know, I get like people you can't do everything, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:38

But you can. If you believe.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Actually, you you you you can. You can't you can do everything, that's the whole fucking reason why we're doing as two people who do many things and everything. This is true. This is true. Yeah, I mean, and so it's kind of like Yeah, I'm um you know, I think I think uh I think the saxophone thing for me, it's still it's still like it's it's like what I'm the best at is what I'm way better than I'm way better at saxophone than I am at anything else.

SPEAKER_05 9:11

Really even like lifting?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Oh 100% in terms of like, you know, the top percentile of people in the world that can do the thing. Uh yeah, I'm I'm better at saxophone than anything.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

How do you like is there like a a test or like how do you even compare? I guess in terms you can do like complex compositional pieces.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, yeah, I can do some stuff like that. I can um, you know, like I think just like like executing uh you know, even the stuff that I do on my Instagram, even like my my saxophone Instagram account, it's just like it's just me just playing playing how I would normally play. But one Instagram reel that did really, really well recently was me playing a tune called Cherokee at 3.40 bpm.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

You know, just like executing, right? Executing like I was at a conservat uh at my conservatory, right? It's like like, you know, my my uh my goal with all of those sorts of things is near perfection. Yeah so you know I try and try and do that uh on Instagram.

SPEAKER_05 10:14

The hidden world of Jaden off Twitter Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

It's a good way, it's a good way to get um more airtime for my sponsors, right? Because I can post a video of me playing saxophone and then just like put a bunch of logos on it.

SPEAKER_05 10:30

Yeah. I've been seeing those. It's actually yeah, it actually works.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

You need to do that with arc ray. You need to just like start doing like more harp videos, more harp videos for that's actually a really good idea.

SPEAKER_05 10:44

I was actually gonna put me playing the harp in arc ray as part of the background music. Oh yeah. I have yet to do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Hey, I mean, I think I think it's a no-brainer. I think it's an absolute no-brainer. Speaking of no-brainer, uh, we're talking about uh putting logos in uh beautiful music. What about the MOPS logos, huh? Zoe computer do it ad reads while I'm talking. While eating hot pot.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

Zoe computer! Yeah. Tell me about Zoe Computer again.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

You've heard the Zoe Computer ad read for like like this is what this is a third time now.

SPEAKER_05 11:21

I'm I'm a regular.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Personal apps and automations, you can host your own code, you can host your own apps, right? It's like open core, but for normal people who don't have a whole hour to spend setting it up, uh, I've been using it uh to give me tips on my workouts when I've not had that much sleep. It's been kinda nice for that actually. Been kind of nice for that. Uh and I'm also moving all my all my websites over to Zoe.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Rule?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, because they can host it. So I'm like, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

I actually didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

I don't I don't really care to be, you know. Like GitHub keeps going down, so I'm like, well, if I just have Zoe host it for me, I don't actually have to worry about Git committing.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

This is true.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

There's a little bit of that. Anyway, Zoe Computer. Uh while we're eating, and while she's eating fishballs. Zoe computer fishballs.

SPEAKER_05 12:07

I was gonna say I could probably do the superpower ad read myself now because of the time we did it like last weekend. But then I was like, maybe we shouldn't do the superpower ad read while we're eating off.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

You can do it right now, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:22

Oh my god, should I okay let me read it? Let me prepare.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

There's a couple of like banger one-liners that I have for superpower now, actually.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

Okay. As a new customer of Superpower, I know that that they do a couple hundred tests in one blood draw.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Mm-hmm. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

And they had so many other tests too while I was going through the initial one. I was like adding everything. I was like, I need this, this, this, and this. What was it? They have like they have a I think a gut microbiome one. Um what else do they have? I think there's a thyroid one. Yes. Like stress.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

So I I naturally got those two because I have girl stomach problems and I have high stress from doing everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

You have all like the hot girl issues of like what is like the hot girl issues are IBS and anemia. What else?

SPEAKER_05 13:19

I think I definitely have IBS. Like 100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

I didn't mean to like fish that out of you.

SPEAKER_05 13:26

I definitely have IBS. I have like mad stomach problems.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

This is this is the this is the greatest, the greatest superpower ad read.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

Oh yeah, okay, go try superpower.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I think that's pretty damn good. Pretty damn good.

SPEAKER_05 13:39

I love superpower.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

The line that I like to use for superpower is uh get the care that billionaires get for less than 200.

SPEAKER_05 13:45

Oh yeah, you did say that one.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

It just kinda goes hard. Kind of goes hard. Command Center for your health. Uh number one place for preventative health. Okay. Where did we leave where did we leave off from? Um, because we were like like we just um Harp and Ad Harp and Ad rays, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

It now goes on on instruments. I still think we should have put sewer power on our foreheads.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

While eating hop? How much more performative can we get?

Prominent figures that have broken the Silicon Valley mould

SPEAKER_00 14:14

But yeah, and so like I guess like Again, because the the the high the high-level topic is like breaking the Silicon Valley mold. And then again, the the the mold is obvious, right? I mean it's like like I've I've I've built moth off of making fun of that mold, right? Making fun of sort of like you know, the the the you know what are you building at at parties, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:35

Or like the series the series B jokes that have been going on.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

There's no dating until series B, of course, of course, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_05 14:42

And now no now easily everyone joining anthropic. Those have been so funny.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

But yeah, even even then, right, it's like uh you know, like like at least the anthropic thing, it's still it's still very much like, oh, these are like very seasoned individuals, like these are these are not people that are sort of like coming from um, you know, like random little backgrounds. Like it's like I mean I'm actually trying to think, I mean, I think I think the most prominent sort of like big tech person, big tech person, I mean he is a big tech person, but Brian Chesky, right? Designer background. Um I can't remember off the top of my head where he went to school, but like to to me he is not like your stereotypical like Silicon Valley plant, right? Yeah. Ivy League or Ivy League dropout to like Fang or to raising a seed route or something.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Can you think of any other people?

SPEAKER_05 15:37

Um it's hard, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:42

When you put on the spot.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

Yeah, when I when you're putting on the spot, it's actually quite hard.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

It's really hard.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

Because for some reason all I can recall is just maybe it's because of it's on my mind because of the trial, but I just immediately thought of Sam Allman and I was like, he kind of followed the mold.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Right, right. It's really hard. I mean, the one my favorite one that I um, you know, aside from Chesky, another one that I really like to bring up is actually the founder of Blue Bottle Coffee.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Oh, actually I don't know this origin story.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

You know, the the reason why I know the founder of like I don't know him personally, but the reason I I like to bring that one up is because he actually went to my school.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

San Francisco Conservatory of Music, he's a clarinet player.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

And so, you know, I need to like sort of like clutch at straws and try to find like other people. I was like, oh a music degree. Um oh Alex Carr, philosophy degree. Kind of kind of cool, like you like humanities major reping.

Non-technicals are now superior

SPEAKER_05 16:36

I feel like what I'm excited about for AI specifically is enabling artists and philosophers in humanities, people who are more creative, to create software products. That's actually what I'm very excited for.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Right, right. I mean, I'm I'm somewhat technical, but yeah, I I'm I'm also yeah, I'm just like leaning into being non-technical now.

SPEAKER_05 17:03

I feel like I feel like that's how my life went too.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Really?

SPEAKER_05 17:08

I studied like hogsci and AI in college and I went extremely into like the technicalities and then like neural computation, and then I kind of like found my way out of that. Yeah, and then got really into philosophy and like eastern spirituality and philosophy. Right. And then I started writing poetry again, like a lot. Huh?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

One more of this.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

Oh yeah, yeah. Wait, you can just dump it in.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

We're just dumping it all in?

SPEAKER_05 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Right, so sorry, I didn't mean to uh interrupt your uh your line of thought.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

What was I?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, you you uh uh you know uh Eastern philosophy, poetry, etc.

SPEAKER_05 17:45

So I kind of swung the other way too, back into the arts.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

And then I started doing like creative coding, I think maybe like two years ago now, a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

What um what do you consider to be creative coding as opposed to not creative coding?

SPEAKER_05 18:00

I think having I basically got into like shader language and all these like graphics programming. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, that makes total sense. Absolutely makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 18:12

Which is a very fun rabbit hole to go down.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah. Okay, I need to try one of the fishbowls.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

Let me know what you think.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Fishbowl if I can fucking pick it up.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

If you can pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Wait, wait, we have spoons.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Wait, what's the best way to pick it up? Wait, you just jabbed it, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

You got it? Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

No, I don't have it. Thank you. This is one-shotted by the fishbowl. It's fucking concerning. Okay. We got it, we got it. We're back. We're back.

SPEAKER_05 18:50

Okay. Taste test, taste us.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Taste testing the fishbowl?

SPEAKER_05 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

It's gonna be hot as fuck. Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, I don't know, like, did you like how how seriously did you take the heart when you were growing up? Like, were you like religious about practicing? Did you ever consider doing it professionally?

Practicing music as a child

SPEAKER_05 19:14

No, I don't think I did.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

No, you was it was like always just uh thinking.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

It was mostly like I actually would always complain about practicing when I was younger, and it wasn't until after college I was like, this is fucking sick, like I need to go back to this. But I think as a kid I really just hated discipline in general and being consistent with things. I was like a pretty chaotic child.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Cho child.

SPEAKER_05 19:42

I'm going for the this like little mead tower we have.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

I should have cut the fishball up, nearly fucking burnt my mouth. I don't know anything. I don't know shit about what's why I went that's why I went non-verbal though for a while. Didn't mean to leave you hanging.

SPEAKER_05 20:01

I'd like burnt your tongue.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_05 20:05

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yeah, okay. Yeah, interesting, interesting. Yeah, because I know like, yeah, when you start, when you start that young, it's like very much um it's I remember basically having periods where depending on what piece my teacher had given me, I would either practice all the time or none at all. Like again, months ago.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

Actually, I was very similar. I love this song called Autumn's Glow. I actually learned it on the piano first. Yeah. And then I transferred it to the harp and I could not stop playing it like obsessively. And I still play it to this day.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, you gotta have your bang of tunes. You gotta have your bang of tunes. Yeah, for me it was always like the uh soundtrack to the Pirates of the Caribbean. Like that just sh that shit just went off when I was like eight.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

Wait, I can imagine do you have pictures of you when you were like a kid playing the fact?

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Yeah, I did my first like solo, did my first solo recital when I was like eight. It was fucking tiny. I think there's a video of that out there somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 21:05

Um you should put it all over social media.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, I need to put sponsors on it. Uh yeah, new media.

SPEAKER_05 21:12

There's no computer on your eight-year-old sacks about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

So this was clarinet actually.

SPEAKER_05 21:17

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

My first clarinet recital. Um, yeah, kind of wild stuff, kind of wild stuff. I know for me, I didn't really start, like I when I turned like 14, 15, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be a like this is what I this is what I get. Like I tried every single sport under the sun. Uh but I but music always came to me so naturally. And it wasn't until teachers basically, you know, people that were better than me started just saying, like, hey, you should take this really seriously. Um and then yeah, like as soon as like I got that push, I was like just head down, you know, dead to the world, it's all I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Like until probably like, yeah, two years into college, where I was like, you know, I got a girlfriend and I wanted to like pay for dinner. I was like, wait, I don't want to be poor. And also I found my peers to be like uninspiring.

SPEAKER_05 22:03

What was uninspiring about them?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Um, I think like I think in general, um I'm gonna I'm I think I'm actually gonna write

Why it’s so hard to bridge art and technology

SPEAKER_00 22:13

a bit about this. Reason being is because it's because like I think recently there's been a lot of discourse around the idea of trying to like, you know, bridge the quote unquote intersection between art and technology. It's like the most fucking like cringe sentence. But like, yeah, I mean a lot of people have been talking about it, like, oh, you know, uh like our friend Noah Smith talking about how like, oh, you know, if there was only some way to bridge the artists and the tech people, but it's a really really hard problem because you know the tech people might be open to it, but artists are definitely not. I definitely experience that even at Conservatory. Um but yeah, I think now that uh now that a lot of art breaks along political lines and a lot of artists see tech people as like bad. It's really like it's so so hard to bridge. It's like such a such a hard gap to bridge, and yeah, I started to see that resentment for like, you know, people doing cool things, like entrepreneurs. I started to see that resentment in people that I was surrounded by even in college. And then like a lot of a lot of artists in college, they're just like all that they would rather earn nothing and play for three play exactly what they want for three people versus like I think I remember you saying this at some point in.

SPEAKER_05 23:29

Anyway, kind of rambling a little bit, but no real, it's quite interesting.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

It's uh it's something that I yeah, it's something that's like really, really hard to fix. Like like people will throw, like, like people will do like philanthropy and throw a bunch of money at the problem, but yeah, money's money's not the issue. It's just like it's like, yeah, there needs to be basically people that can bridge the two themselves because they understand both sides. And this is not many, not many people. Not many people that can do that.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

There are not a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

It's a bit of a bit elitist of me saying that, but we've actually probably got two of them here.

SPEAKER_05 24:02

This is true. I try to be one of those people. I try to be equal artist and equal engineer.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Yeah. That's so good. I mean, like, I'm like, you know, I am uh I'm sure that, you know, being able to play like I can play maybe a better engineer when I was engineering most of the time. Uh did I like know the insides out of a computer all the way down to the metal? Absolutely fucking not. But could I solve weird problems maybe differently compared to others? Maybe. Yeah. Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 24:32

I found that actually everything I do that seems like disrelated, I actually learn things and apply them to other domains of my life.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Right.

Muay Thai and Gym

SPEAKER_05 24:44

Like actually Moy Thai has taught me a lot about how to calm my nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

I was gonna say that was gonna be the next one we can get into.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

Yeah, which I realized was always just like extremely high stress, like extremely just tense. And it actually taught me how to slow down despite it looking so brutal and so intensive and like the opposite of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, because you're pretty jacked. You used to lift weights as well, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:12

I did. We should do a gym podcast.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

True.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

School as a service. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

You're just dropping all of my printing. Ben, I need to get to get you on every side.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

I'm a natural.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah, just shilling, shilling for the homies.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

Shilling everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Don't mind if we do.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

We love the homies.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah. We love shilling.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Supporting the homies.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, interesting. How um uh how long ago did you get into Muay Thai? A couple years ago, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:47

I think it's been maybe a year and a half to two years, I wanna say. That's basically when I quit weightlifting.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah, you you fully quit it.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

You've broken my heart.

SPEAKER_05 26:01

I know, I'm sorry. I just like I okay, I actually weightlifted for so long, like I think I think three or four years.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

I guess that's not like super long, but No, that's that's a that's more than what most people do.

SPEAKER_05 26:16

Really?

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 26:18

And I was really consistent with it. I would go like 245, I was really good at deadlift for some reason. But I basically like plateaued in my competitive, like it used to be an outlet for yeah, almost like competition.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:35

And I mean just a good way to like release energy in general.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Like hey, you're preaching to the choir. Preaching body dysmorphia to the choir.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

No, it's good.

SPEAKER_05 26:48

No.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

It keeps me going. Keeps me going, keeps my arms getting bigger.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

Do you think they will what is like the maximum you think you can go with your arms? Like, how much bigger do you think they can get, like realistically?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Not much bigger. Realistically, not much bigger without steroids. And I refuse to uh I refuse to do that.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

That is fair. I I respect it.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

It's a side it's a side tangent, but everybody right now asks the most common question I get is like what peptides are you on? I'm like, bruv, like peptides don't won't make me look like this. Maybe if I was like, I don't know. Maybe maybe I could get away with saying red or true tie because I'm lean all the time, but like, fuck that, no, I need to eat. That's why we're eating eating meat and broccoli.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

We're just eating meal prep, but like dipped in soup.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah. Eating soup meal prep. That's true. That's true. And honestly, don't mind if we do.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

I do not mind at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Wouldn't have it any other way. Um speaking of which, because we're, you know, to because we're on the topic of uh physical activity, again, it's like like where we're trying to uh thinking of ways to break out of the Silicon Valley mould. Again, the Silicon Valley mold. I keep defining it because I think it's important, right?

You can’t do your best work with 996

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Like like silicon, like people in Silicon Valley they always talk about the you know the meritocracy. I do think out of out of most industries, actually, it's a side point, I'm gonna rant a bit. I do think out of most most industries, tech does tend to have tend to be the best when it comes to uh the meritocracy. I would go ahead and say that. You know, like I mean finance has their target schools, like tech has their target schools which tends to be like Stanford and the United's right.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Um the thing is like Yeah, I feel like yeah, it's just like like the the tech bro activities, they're so samey, they're so samey. And like like the the finance bros, they try their absolute best to have a life outside of work, right? Whether it's like taking drugs or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 28:52

But at least poker nights. Actually, poker nights are now pretty popular in SF as well.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Um but yeah, like like I'm I'm trying to think, like, I I I wonder yeah, the more the mold is like yeah, coming out of these Ivy Leagues and just continuing to grind and live a bit like a college student. So that's why I'm kind of like I'm I'm stressing it's why I stress all the time. Physical fitness, uh, the gym, right, where we're detwinkifying, we're getting the nerds jacked, right, we're getting the nerds girlfriends, all of these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

I do think getting getting people work-life balance and just like other aspects of life is good.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, I'm not convinced that you can do your best work if you're working nine on six. I'm truly, I truly believe that the downtime is where you are the most creative.

SPEAKER_05 29:39

I agree. And I actually think if I if I don't do Muay Thai or like don't do something creative outside of my work, it actually hinders my work. Because I'm not giving my brain a break.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 29:55

And then I can get into like thought loops and then slow myself down. And especially something something I'm pretty bad at is like sleep. But if I if I don't get enough sleep, it's just a complete nerf. Like it's so bad.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Which sucks, right? Because it's like I for me, I've had insomnia before, and it's like, yeah, whenever you're not sleeping, it tends to be a bit of a spiral.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

So I've had to stop caring about that. But it's it's so true, it's so true. Yeah, I think back around to the the Muay Thai thing, I like what started that rant. First of all, I need to give a shout out to um blackbox.ai because the reason I bring them up right now is of course she's like, of course.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

I'm ready, I'm already ready.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

She remembers.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

Of course. Naturally.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah, black box. It's actually fitting that I bring them up with Muay Thai because they're all like, you know, they've got like Navy SEALs and shit on their team, and they're just like doing push-ups all the time. I had lunch with them on the weekend. Um yeah, they're just kind of like jacked and like navy seal-like, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

They're doing it right, they're doing the founder life right.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

That's how they decide to run their company. Um, but yeah, black box AI serving over 30 million plus developers uh worldwide. And I think the cool thing about them is the thing, you know, like a lot of a lot of people ask me, uh, like what differentiates BlackBox between something like a cognition or a factory? The cool thing about them is they actually train their own models as well. And they use a lot of open source. As well as being attached to the you know, the Frontier Labs, Rag Yu, Cold Code, Codecs. In fact, you can actually like you can run all of these workflows from one place, and you can actually spin up to 15 agents at one time. As as as one should. As one should. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

But it will now be black box, my 15 black box agents.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Just convert it, he says bring bring people out to dinner, um convert them. Get them to chat. And then and then yeah, sell them, sell them stuff. So yeah, uh, black box today, yeah. Definitely go check them out. Like Nicole's doing. Um so yeah, Muay Thai. Because now that's all you do now, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

I actually do for fitness muay thai and hot yoga.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Alright.

Hot yoga and learning how to eat fishballs

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Wait, so I've never done I've never done a hot yoga ever. I mean I've barely done normal yoga.

SPEAKER_05 32:25

Okay, I will take you. It's actually a workout. It's actually pretty difficult.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. Like, I don't know, I don't know shit about fuck I I've got pr I've got pretty good core stability. I mean I better. Fucking hell. If I didn't have good core stability, like I'm screwed.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah. I think well core stability is important in wai and hot yogurt.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

I'm gonna try to get another fish bowl. Wait, I got it this time. Fuck. Wait, did you use the spoon for a fishbowl?

SPEAKER_05 32:56

I did. Oh you did, okay. I feel wet.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah, I'm not gonna, yeah, I like like I need to try and um I need to try and like do my do my best to to use the correct utensils.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

The spoon is definitely, definitely correct for the fishbowl.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Okay. Well I'm glad. I'm glad. If you're doing it, then I'll do it. My white ass will do it. Uh because my white ass is listening. Don't worry, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing what you think. I'm I'm actually trying to cool it down because last time I nearly burned my mouth. I thought you were literally gonna go like just stab the fishbowl and eat it. Yeah, that'd be fucked up. Yeah, hot yoga. Do you just go by yourself? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

This is more of a friend. But you should definitely pong. We should go with Val. I think Val would love it. I mean, I'm sure she's gone.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Shout out Valentina. Uh not just a not just a friend of the pod, but a co-host of the pod. Yeah, it's funny, right? Because I feel like uh, yeah, that's like I almost exclusively go to the gym by myself.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

Like various like a you like it as alone time?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yep. Big time. I mean I it's still it it it ends up being a bit of a social club for me because I have so many friends that end up, you know, I make friends with people at the gym that go at that time, that sort of thing. Um but yeah, a lot of the time it's sort of like my own little world. And it's delightful. I don't have to like worry about switching weights with anybody, I don't have to have some somebody in my ear being like, hey, can we do this exercise? Blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

This is true.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Um anyway, that's just me complaining. Uh complaining about it.

SPEAKER_05 34:30

Do you think you'd ever stop lifting?

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Uh at this stage, no. No. It is so it is so entrenched in my being. Um, and like my arms are just like such a part of my identity. I don't think Mots would exist without my arms. I truly don't believe it.

SPEAKER_05 34:48

Mots completely relies on your arms.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

Like um the size of your arms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

I think I'd be screwed. I'm a screw. So but I do think um, you know, like like a lot of people ask me, it's like, oh how often do you train? Like all these sorts of

Making time for stuff that is not AI agents

SPEAKER_00 35:10

things. Uh it's like like a lot of the questions that I get from people on Instagram, right? It's like, oh, how do you how do you balance the time between practice and work and then also going to the gym, right? It's like like I think I think the same thing for people in tech, right? It's like so many people can't actually fathom the idea of going to the gym five times a week. Or doing any hobby five times a week. And that to me is sad. I'm not sad. I'm not I'm not uh, you know, like I think there are times in which you must work 996, like there's there's a product launch or whatever the hell. But I always put gym first every single time. Because if that if that if that goes, then everything else in my life suffers. That might also be the body dysmorphia speak.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Is it the wound or is it healthy?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

Let's play what what is the mo motivation? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

Do I hate myself or am I doing it because I love myself?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah, exactly. I know do you feel this way sometimes with Muay Thai, hot yoga, being active? Yeah. I mean you have body dysmorphia too. We talk about it all the time. I see the delts. Those are body dysmorphia delts.

SPEAKER_05 36:20

I will say sometimes I'm like, wow, I'm like very disproportionate. And then other times I'm like, wow, I'm really fit. And it's honestly all the lighting. I feel like lighting is key.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Anabolic lighting. I think this is true. I think this is true. Um the alpha for people that are living in SF, which is basically every single one of Monster's listeners,

The best anabolic lighting in San Francisco

SPEAKER_00 36:45

is that uh Fitness SF Fillmore has what I like to call the body dysmorphia lighting. There is a section in Fitness SF Fillmore. Um there's two racks of dumbbells, two racks of dumbbells, and they're actually perpendicular to one another. There's one rack of dumbbells that goes up to 120 pounds. That's nice for guys, um for us like Jimbo guys who need a little bit of extra weight, but the lighting is not as good. The other section that's perpendicular only goes up to 75 pounds, but that lighting just makes you feel like you're impacting over the world. I can see like every bit of vascularity, I can feel I can I can see everything. And gosh, does it make me feel good? Um does it scare everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 37:27

You're just absolutely terrifying everyone around.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Kind of concerning. Um, yeah, there's that. I don't even know why I bring that up. But these are the things that you can find out. This is this is the kind of analysis that you actually get on members of technical staff. You don't actually get this kind of uh niche San Francisco information anywhere. And, you know, if you go to Fitness SF Fillmore, you'll probably see me there. Because I'm there all the fucking time. Like looking at myself in the lighting.

SPEAKER_05 37:55

Is that your favourite location?

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Um, it has been recently. It's a little too busy. Uh I you really have to go when it's like 3 pm. Or you can't go between the hours of 4 30 and 8 30 pm. You just otherwise you're gonna be lining up for equipment, which is just like, you know, that's just I'm I'm happy spending two hours at the gym. I'm not happy spending three hours waiting.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Waiting, yeah, waiting.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Is what it is. You know, beggars can't be choosing, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:24

I think I went there once or twice, but the one time I went, they had like a leak or like a water leak or something. That sounds that I was like I think I'm going back to the one next to next to X headquarters. Because that one I really like.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

The one on Market Street. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the one that I also go to a lot. I go to that one a lot. This guy's more spacious, it's less busy, yep. Yeah, mid market. Shout out the mid-market crew. Love those guys. Um uh kind of thinking, because it's because this has just been absolute fucking chaos. And again, honestly, we wouldn't we wouldn't have it any other way uh with this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:03

If we want to sort of wrap- Zero other way. We gotta pass because we're eating. I'm like a half distracted trying to fish broccoli out of a pot.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, we don't even have any fucking tweets to react to. Like monsters just fucking production quality is just down down the drain. It's over.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Worth it for the food.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

But yeah, I mean, you know, because I mean like obviously like you're

Being unapologetically yourself

SPEAKER_00 39:26

working on you're very, very uh unapologetically yourself and trying to be different, right? To break that mold, right? To to just kind of like do whatever the fuck all the time. Yeah, I mean Any thoughts? It's not even a question.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

I feel like I feel like I didn't even really tr go in with my go into anything with like I don't want to be normal. I think I kind of just like do what you like. Yeah, I just like kind of was like, oh I like this, or like I really want to do this for some random reason.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

And then it kind of just sorted itself out.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Pure curi curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

And that's the thing, right? I mean, I think that's like that's honestly it's probably what I was trying to get out of you. Basically, like the idea that um yeah, a lot of these a lot of these things you can't really force, you just do what you like, right? I feel like I feel like when it comes to a lot of you know trying to bridge the gap. I I keep bringing coming back to this trying to bridge the the gap between you know art and technology, it oftentimes feels, and I know this is all with good intentions, all these sorts of things, it's not it's not necessarily a disc, but it all it always feels like we're just trying a bit too hard. Trying a bit too hard to sort of be like cool and trendy. Um when I don't know I don't really know where I'm going with this, but basically I think I should do it.

SPEAKER_05 40:52

I am the one to do it, I am the bridge.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah, no, on on this though, I was actually I was telling the colleagues before, but basically, uh we'll be a jazz recital, June 14th. This is locked in as of today. More details coming up.

SPEAKER_05 41:04

I'm very excited to go.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah. And so, you know, the reason I say I I will do it is because yeah, like Saxophone is what I am the best at, and I always get asked, like, where are the where are the best jazz bars in San Francisco? I actually don't think there are that many. Um, and I do think even the really, really good ones you can still go see stuff that sucks. And if people don't know what is good or not, it's sort of hard for them to tell, like, whether, you know, it's like, oh, did they have a good experience? Hard to say.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

This is true.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

So my di my idea is to just do it myself. People can come here, you know, it's they're probably the first time I've played in San Francisco since maybe 2019. Jeez, it's been a while. Um, yeah, all original music. We shall see. We shall see guys.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Are you selling tickets?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

No, I'm gonna make it free.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

I'm bankrolling it myself. Thank you, uh uh Motspod. But yeah, just like stuff like that. I do I really do feel like there needs to be uh yeah, it needs to be those that have broken the mold, have side hobbies, can can actually do other things at a higher level other than the technology facilitating stuff like this. You know?

SPEAKER_05 42:08

I feel like I believe that every person naturally is able to do both. It's more like do you take the time to nurture and explore the other side almost?

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Totally, totally. This is a great place to wrap. Um, I think before we wrap though, need to just give a quick shout-out to Cappy.ai, Moss's newest sponsor.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

Yay! Cappy!

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Do you know the Cappy guys?

SPEAKER_05 42:33

Um You haven't met them before? I think I haven't met them. You've seen them before, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

They have a great online presence. Um yeah. Basically, yeah, I've been I've been mutuals with I've been mutuals with uh uh Luffy for a very, very long time from Cappy. Uh yeah, agentic IDE, spin up all your agents in one place. Um the cool coolest thing about Cappy is that uh, well you can say it's either the coolest or the scariest. Might be a little bit of both. But they actually have this Slack integration, and so non-technicals on your team can actually make pull requests just by via Slack. It's kind of scary.

SPEAKER_05 43:07

Scary but cool. Scary but cool.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Their Slack integration is really good. Um so yeah, Cappy.ai. Um I'm gonna be having them on bots pretty soon. They've got a good sense of humor, so it'll be like, you know, I feel like that'll be a really good point. That's gonna be that's gonna be fucking chaos. Um I mean, I mean, like like everything, like everything really. Yeah, I think um I think unless there's like anything that you really want to touch on, it's probably a good place to wrap. Any any any closing thoughts? If you don't have any, that's also too much. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 43:38

I'm honestly so focused on the food.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:43

Yeah, I think we're good.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Cool. Yeah, because we're gonna we're gonna need more food. I've decided. I know. Yeah, we're gonna need more.

SPEAKER_05 43:48

I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Cool. Alright. Cool. We've been listening to another episode of Members of Fectual Stuff. We'll see you again on the timeline. You'll see.